on trial for writing

[canadian]

... and hunters and native people and single women living in large cities and security guards and ... 

[LesFloyd]

Why hunters? Let the goats roam free, I say! Security guards don't need them, either - it's not worth dying over a bag of money. Single women should carry mace. Natives should carry bows and arrows (like they did before 'civilization' invaded).

[Ed]

So, out of the armed forces, only the army are allowed guns, huh?  I can see the navy on exercise now - all the crew lined up on deck, with holes where the gun turrets used to be, and them all trying to scare the bejesus out of the enemy by shouting "BOOM!" then whistling in unison

I sort of have mixed feelings about the whole 'guns' issue, because I used to target shoot with hand guns and I got a lot of satisfaction from it.  It's difficult to explain the feeling you get from loosing off a few rounds at a target, but at the end of a long stressful day I found it calmed me right down and released any pent up aggression.  It has to be said that 99.9% of all gun crime in the UK was, and still is, carried out by people without firearms licences, using illegally held weapons.  The Dunblane massacre sickened me so much that I never went back to the firing range after it and, shortly afterwards, all hand guns (with the exception of black powder pistols) were made illegal and confiscated.  Is the country safer for it?  Nope.  I can still buy semi automatic pistols, as long as they're black powder, and I can still buy any type of rifle I want to, and pretty much any kind of shotgun.  I can even buy and legally use a cannon, if I want to

Personally, if I was going to get shot, I'd prefer it was with a 9mm

[SharonBell]

For the record, I'm not anti-gun, I'm anti-idiots.  We own guns, locked away in gunsafes, ammo in another safe. Once upon a time, I worked at the American Medical Association and wrote an article on assault weapons, and Blunt, you are absolutely correct. You can get rifles, shotguns, and anything else you want here at gunshows, no wait, and you can get kits to convert anything to automatic weapons.

If we are a gun-toting society (and about 50% of Americans own guns, and 25% keep them loaded in a bedside stand) then we should be a responsible gun-toting society. Take lessons, like driving a car, have a gun safe, keep KIDS AWAY from them.  But, no, any moron can buy a gun and leave it, say, on the kitchen table.

When my son was little (not even 5 years old), I had a check-list of things I asked people, before he was allowed to visit without me. It included, does anyone smoke in the house (he has asthma) and do you own guns? If they owned guns, did they lock them up?

Believe it or not, a smoking, gun-toting dad told me his 5 year old knew how to "handle" all the guns in his house, that were left around, LOADED. I said, "So, Bill, how would you feel if my son, who doesn't know how to handle guns, were to shoot your son, thinking it was a toy, because we don't have guns lying around the house."

Dead silence.

So. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Sharon

[Walker]

"So, Bill, how would you feel if my son, who doesn't know how to handle guns, were to shoot your son, thinking it was a toy, because we don't have guns lying around the house."

Dead silence.

Good come-back Sharon, and a point I'll bet Bill hadn't thought about.

[JoyceCarter]

'Anti idiots' - oh, yes, and in all areas of life, not just about guns.  Every time I might think, 'Well, I don't suppose anything can surprise me any more,' another one steps out with a whole new realm of possibilities to be certified for.

I know what you mean about shooting, Blunt.  I've done rifle-shooting at targets, and found it very satisfying.  I've never had the chance to try with a hand-gun, but always fancied the idea - I must have done it in another life, I guess, as none of my family could ever see the attraction!

[sepia]

That is terrible.
Here's one: I was in an advanced design class last year & myprof told me to put together a poster for her using 2 different software progs. It was right after the RIAA started getting support from Homeland Security. I made a poster that spelled America with a K, used a Nazi period typeface, and proclaimed the new terrorists to be downloaders and their WMD being the mp3.
Okay, so far politically incorrect, but it wasn't designed for publishing.
Where I messed up wqas grabbing the HS logo and plastering it on the page.
A fellow student asked if he could see this poster that I put together in about 20 minutes (not really my best work), and I was running late. So, I tossed him the zip disk it was on & told him to bring it to the next class.
About 3 days later, my computer started acting really strangely and then I turned it on one day after disconnecting the power to the cable modem to change my IP, and it was totally lowjacked. Black screen with white cursor only. so, I plugged in my 2nd computer, same thing within 48 hours, Couldn't even get into safe mode. As i was getting ready to hook up the third one, I called the cable company to see if they knew what was going on. They told me I had been hacked. Now this was through both software and hardware firewalls. The cable company was baffled, said they couldn't figure out who. I went to class later that day and asked my friend for the disk. He had uploaded it onto a site he had. I know the rules of graphics and web & that I never should have put that logo on there if it was going on the web. also, a paragraph on theire spoke ill of our govt's tactics.
I called my Mom, a widow of a Naval officer who does a lot of govt contract work. Until now, she disliked me to the point that she had told all her friends I was dead. But, she was a huge dissident hippy during the 60's. She had to be quiet once she married but I had raised hell during my whole teen years especially when we lived near DC & I could make it to protests.
She told me I had violated the Patriot Act & therefore was in trouble. I'd had my friend pull the poster immediately. But, my Mom was so delighted that I had finally gotten in trouble for a good cause that she believed in. She apparenlty told all her friends that I had gone underground to protests the "war-mongering machine that was our government". She loves that phrase and is a bit nuts--she enjoyed the 60's just a bit too much. The old saying about if you remember the 60's, you probably weren't there.
Since then, whenever i try to send pics through yahoo, they upload to a us.gov site on a central server and must be retrieved from the server. I'm not sure if it still is that way, I have moved since then.  Apparently msn doesn't care as much because as of Christmas, I can now send photos through there, for a long time they sent an error message saying they couldn't be sent. 
Most of my family is heavily invested into the gov't in some way or another and all of us have had FBI stuff done for clearances. I no longer have clearance because of some other trouble i got into a while back involving the feds.
Protest posters are now all over the web, and I have thought about taking the logo off and doing a bit of reworking on that one and throwing it back up on web. A representation of this type of poster can be found at the following url. All anti-war, but done by a designer whom I feel to be a  brave man. http://homepage.mac.com/leperous/PhotoAlbum1.html
These works are vector art re-works of old propaganda posters done in WWII. All logos are slightly altered, including the Nazi ones.

I had to wipe out all the computers and really behaved myself on the net for a long time. 

[kimbly]

No, guns shouldn't have a place...But with a crazy right-wing nut in office, now is not the time to give them up. We'll need to defend ourselves when they come for us.  The publishers of the Handmaid's Tale should re-release the book. We're actually much closer to that being a reality now than when the book first came out.

Actually, I don't own a gun 'cause it seems stupid to do so with children in the house but quick access is the standard in this part of town. Speaking of which, I'm a guidance counselor in an "inner-city" school. I'd be fucking thrilled if my kids were writing zombie stories instead of joining gangs and getting pregnant. But of course, one must know how to read and write to do that.

kimbly--referring students to anger management courses on a regular basis. 

[Ed]

Sepia - that's unreal   So do you think it was some right wing fruitcake that hacked you, or somebody 'under higher orders'?  Thankfully, I've got a dynamic IP addy, so the chances of being pinned down long enough to be hacked are smaller, but then, if the cracker knows what they're doing, they can be in and messing with you in a few minutes anyway.

Kimbly - I know what you mean about not wanting guns in the house with kids around.  Even if they're in a proper gun safe, kids have a nasty way of finding keys and messing with stuff they shouldn't.  I'd hate to be responsible for a tragedy, just because I was careless one day.  That's something I don't think I could live with.

Do you really think Americans need to defend themselves, with guns, against their own government?  From the outside, I must admit that there are some worrying trends taking shape in your government's policies, but I can't really see it ending in armed struggle   Let's hope not anyway.

[sepia]

I didn't know what to think--the reason I called my ex-hippie Mom who had gov't contacts. I also asked a lawyer (now judge) friend of mine and both said the same thing--I can print "The Dept of H $ecurity  anywhere on  the page, but ripping their logo and slapping it on was not only violation of intellectual property (something that can be serious when messing with the gov't) but also a violation of the Patriot Act. But, it was never supposed to go on the web at all. It was a quick class assignment & a bit of a joke at the time
The cable company was actually quite astonished since they are usually aware of what it going on and has logs and stuff. This party left no mark except one on the service that showed an interruption. I didn't want to think hack but the ISP was the one that said that was it.
The IT's at the college that was at that time across the street from me couldn't figure out what the Hell it was--and they go messing with each other's service all the time. Thought it was a good frined tath dowes some playful hacking occasionally, but not him.
The coincidence of the poster upload, the inability to shift files directly through IM (still through yahoo--even using a third party thing like Gaim which canceleld a .mov file coming to me from Australia, and a personal video made by the sender from a Rave down there he was at--that was 2 days ago), the one by one hacks that even the cable company couldn't track back....
Also, rather than just believing the US Fox stations, I like to look at news from all over and come to my own conclusions so I was looking at Al_Jaz***, along with other countries completely not involved with the war, I kinda think it was a gov thing.
I was working on a photo job at the time and lost all my files I had just loaded into the pc from my camera. Plus I am involved in a few other groups that are rather radical fringe places. My religious beliefs could be called in also, and I had written some stuff denouncing outr position and that I gfelt that for years we had acted the bully on the block and that was why we were so hated by the majority of the rest of the world. Also, I have had 2 very heavy brushes w/ the fed system since leaving my navy family.
If I was a betting woman...........
And, a keylogger was found in the 3rd machine. I watched my step a bit after that. Any upload I did after that was from internet cafes on an account made at the cafe. Yup, I don't trust our gov at all.

[Ed]

   That's amazing.     And government claiming intellectual property rights over one of their departments' logo - that is just bizarre.  A government is supposed to be serving its people and, since the people pay taxes to fund those departments, I can't see how they can claim copyright or intellectual property rights over anything created with public funding.  It's not like you were using it for fraudulent purposes, is it?

I think it could well be that you fell foul of a right wing vigilante hacker.  Even then, the chances of it happening are so remote that you've been extremely unlucky to become a victim of it/them.  From what you say, though, I wouldn't be surprised if you've been targeted by a govt dirty tricks department.  Scary shit

[sepia]

My views are radical, but extremely pacifistic. My spiritual beliefs now, and since my childhood/teens is the Wheel of the Year--that everything living has a spirit and a place on this Earth, that all life is sacred.
I still have problems with some of the criminal groups--womena & men who knowingly give deadly disease to others through intimacy, and I have a very hard time with pediphylles. Some people are just incurable in their criminality, and I have my beliefs about that. Damn, I hate talking religion or politics.
I truly don't believe we can blame whole groups for the acts of an individual. For us to say all of the Islamic faith are bad because of the actos of the regime in Iraq or osama is like saying all Christians are bad because of the acts of Hitler and Mussolini.
I choose to see all sides of a story before making my personal judgement--this takes me at times to net sites that our govt doesn't like. I know from some hack ware I installed for a bit that going to some of the sites i go to raises red flags. It's not like I own 43 copies of Catcher in the Rye or anything ( a novel found in possession of some of our more notorious killers.--Actually I had to read it in HS, barely remember it, and don't see why they would choose that book.)
I am extremely vocal against the way our govt has been behaving (the USA). I advocate for the homeless, sign petitions for enviromental affairs & get newsletters about these things, was one of the 12 founders of what is considered a "subversive" group in my area, & like I said before, I have had some pretty major brushes with law enforcement in the past.
I read this months story and thought about some of the things the women I was incarcerated with did--totally heinous things, and about  how easy institutionalization is. But, I got out 4 yrs ago today and now work with and for women and girls to prevent them from getting to the point of prison or to keep from going back. I also do some adjunct work for several agencies in town and for the DOC. This is in addition to my self=employed bum career.
So, whoever it was, I can see why. On paper I don't look so hot. But, it is pretty cool when your old PO (I had a white collar crime and was non-violent) calls and asks advice. I am not cured, but I am in a constant state of healing.
I have been fabulously well off coming from a very Republican family full of people in high gov't places, and I have been a homeless wreck. But, I have learned something from all of it and I believe the path of life is laid out as it should be. If my mistakes can help others, it was worth every one of them. I have few regrets & no shame about my lifestyle.

My only regret is that I can't go back knowing what I know now, & do it all over again, taking more chances but not repeating the same mistakes. Time is the worst thief I have run up against so far.

[Ed]

It can be difficult to live by ideals in a modern western society, but I can't say I'm sure enough of anything to advocate one path over another.  I do like in depth discussions on morality, religion and politics, though, and I try to keep an open mind and see things from all perspectives.  There are a few 'truths' that have somehow become engrained in my psyche, but by and large I'm pretty quiet about it, unless the topic comes up in conversation. 

I've never been moved to join any particular mainstream campaign, although my name was once in a local paper, preceded by the word 'protester', which I found quite alarming at the time   It was in connection with a road that our local council tried to force through a beauty spot.  I took a lot of photographs and wrote to prominent people, did radio interviews and stuff, but left the tree spiking and banner waving to others.  The area is now a protected country park, the trees still stand, the river still flows its natural course, and the road never got built   So I guess I did something useful somewhere along the line, but I was a small cog in a big machine.

[sepia]

Well, it takes all the cogs to make the wheel roll. good for you!!
I think a bit of civil disobedience is ingrained in me. Very conservative family except my Mom who was the "Flower Power" girl & dragged my little sister and I along to lots of really cool (though only in retrospect) events. She protested all sorts of stuff, did the sit-ins, marches, cnadlelight vigils, etc. We were right with her for most.
But, she settled down and married a very conservative New Englander, Naval Academy and all, & her protesting wars was unseemly for a military wife. so, I kept on, she just quietly cheered in the background.

I agree about debates, as long as they don't go to flame wars. When dealing with lifestyles, religion, and politics though, one is dealing with core beliefs and those are often hard to get into. I think the addage about all religions having n common the belief: "Treat others as you would have them treat you" is in order. It's all basically the same cake, just different frostings. We all are going in the same direction, we just take different paths there. i have chosen the unpaved road through the wild. I've fallen and skinned my knee, been chased by wild animals, and other things, but I shall have fantastic stories to tell at the end of my days. To me, much better than taking the safe freeway.
A bit of Zen & the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance philosophy I guess. I'm just a leaf in the stream.

I hope things are working out for you Sharon.

[Ed]

Yup, it depends who you're debating with.  Some people just can't handle any views except their own.  Others seem to hit a glass ceiling of intellect, where they accept that they've lost every argument they've put forward... but they're still not wrong

On Audiogalaxy, a few years ago, I got into some very heated debates on a lot of different subjects, and it was fascinating.  One guy that I took issue with was... wait for it... a Nazi sympathiser and rabidly antisemitic - preaching white power.  He admired Hitler, and wished the nazis had won the second world war   The funny part was that he was Mexican - not a particularly arian race   It didn't matter how many times I shot him down in flames with reasoned arguments, he just wouldn't relent.  Come the end, the site owners, who had been killing themselves laughing at this guy, got nervous and deleted the thread.  But I think a few of us gave him something to think about, and made him question his views.  I reckon he actually realised how ridiculously wrong he was, but couldn't admit it