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Fictive Dream, your ideas please?

Started by joandarc, September 27, 2010, 08:15:33 PM

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joandarc

Hi all,

I'm just getting geared up for the upcoming crit session!

I'm looking at the template::: "Fictive Dream, A composite mark".

I'd like to discuss what this means, any feedback would be helpful.

I have a feel for what it is.  It's a voice continuum, sort of? ...  It's probably the most difficult thing to achieve too, right?

I like the terminology.  Does the term come from James Frey?:

James Frey says that "A transported reader is dreaming the fictive dream." He supports this idea by quoting John Gardner, in The Art of Fiction (1984), in which he argues that "this [the fictive dream], no matter the genre, is the way fiction does its work." For Frey the fictive dream is created by the power of suggestion. By this he means that the prose must be full of vivid detail and close observation to pull the reader in to the story. If the prose becomes too telling the reader will be pushed out.


http://www.blog.poet.me.uk/characterisation-inducing-the-fictive-dream.htm

Thanks all.


Pharosian

I think of the fictive dream as how "immersed" I am in the story. The better the plot, characterization and writing, the more immersed I'm likely to be. But if I have trouble suspending disbelief, or if I notice plot holes, or if a character behaves in a way that doesn't ring true, or if the dialogue is clunky, or if the writing suffers from glaring mechanical problems, I get pulled out of the story and the fictive dream is shredded.

hauntedmarrs


I got a bit stuck on that one too, Joandarc.  I thought a bit about it and the way I would approach it would be, am I seeing the story as a movie in my head or as words on a page?

Hope this helps.

Ed

To me, writing a story is the art of evoking images in the reader's mind that, along with the information you pass on, meld together to transport your reader out of their life and into that of a fictional character. The words vanish from the page, and you forget you're reading -- you're just there, in the story. Just like watching a good film.

As Pharo says, mistakes in the writing can make you surface for a while, and too many can burst the bubble altogether, or prevent one from forming in the first place. I think it's one of the key elements we look at. If you can identify the places in your writing that break the fictive dream, and correct them, I think you stand a better than average chance of getting the work published.
Planning is an unnatural process - it is much more fun to do something.  The nicest thing about not planning is that failure comes as a complete surprise, rather than being preceded by a period of worry and depression. [Sir John Harvey-Jones]

delph_ambi

I'm with Ed on this. If you forget you're reading, you're in the fictive dream. If something makes you remember - like a bit of poor syntax, an unlikely plot twist, or someone's hair changing colour - then you've been yanked out of the fictive dream and have your critic's hat placed firmly back on your head.

Ed

Hmm -- I started reading the link and stumbled where the author sayss:

QuoteFor Frey the fictive dream is created by the power of suggestion. By this he means that the prose must be full of vivid detail and close observation to pull the reader in to the story.

That's not entirely true. Too much detail can kill the pace, bore the reader and pull them out of the story. Minutia, such as turning left and right (something the reader can't entirely picture), sitting, rising, picking up, replacing coffee cups, etc., is almost always superfluous. Many authors/editors/readers feel physical description of characters is also superfluous, but with that one you have to draw your own editorial line.

The very best description, IMO, is achieved with an economy of words arrived at by clever, well thought out focus on a few things that evoke a big picture.
Planning is an unnatural process - it is much more fun to do something.  The nicest thing about not planning is that failure comes as a complete surprise, rather than being preceded by a period of worry and depression. [Sir John Harvey-Jones]

LashSlash

2 thoughts:
#one on this: - The very best description, IMO, is achieved with an economy of words arrived at by clever, well thought out focus on a few things that evoke a big picture.  .... if anyone has bothered to read the dankawanka rules of thumb for writing [sucked from], rule 9 suggests: give the reader exactly what he/she needs --- nothing more and nothing less. [anything more or anything less you are stabbing your readers' suspension of disbelief in the back].  the writer is creating an illusion  - in this discussion its called a fictive dream -- use your writing as a tool to create this illusion;  dont use the fictive dream as a tool to create your writing..... 

and thought #2 on the READERS  entering a fictive dream state: -  try as a WRITER to enter that state of fictive dreaming when making up your story .... that way, when you actualy write the words, you are writing first hand experiances - illusions of truth [seen it - done it; to a certaim extent you are recalling 'actual events] and it  rings true to the reader ......

.... does this mean anything to anyone?






joandarc

Hi, these are all great responses.

thank you so much.

Too much detail can kill the pace, bore the reader and pull them out of the story.

The emphasis should be on vivid detail without being verbose.  And vivid would automatically imply that you have written directly from the image in your mind.  It's the writer's job to grab that image and show it.  What a tough job!  Mercy, mercilous! 

There's nothing like one well placed and well chosen adjective.  In my hexperience, using too many means you just haven't found the right one ; )

Of course, many problems pop up here, such as personal preference.  Some readers are transported to heaven by vivid flowery descriptions of things.  I personally am somewhat bored by that if it's overdone, unless I'm being transported to hell, well then, you're walking the talk! 





Ed

Quote from: LashSlash on September 28, 2010, 01:51:24 PM
use your writing as a tool to create this illusion;  dont use the fictive dream as a tool to create your writing..... 

TBH, I don't see how the latter would work as a concept. I see the fictive dream purely as an indicator of how successful a piece of writing is, but even then, it's only one aspect of many. How would you go about using the fictive dream as a tool to create your writing?

Quoteand thought #2 on the READERS  entering a fictive dream state: -  try as a WRITER to enter that state of fictive dreaming when making up your story .... that way, when you actualy write the words, you are writing first hand experiances - illusions of truth [seen it - done it; to a certaim extent you are recalling 'actual events] and it  rings true to the reader ......

.... does this mean anything to anyone?

I've had that happen to me before, but it's rare, and I don't think this dreamlike state is necessary to write good stories. In fact, I think a lot of the time it results in nothing more than a stream of consciousness that in turn takes a lot of editing down to fashion into a decent story.

Perhaps more experienced writers than myself get on better with it, but for me, I prefer the technique of putting myself into the world I'm creating and then thinking about what's going to happen next -- what's the coolest thing that could possibly happen next, or what's the worst -- depending upon which part of the story I'm at. The thing is, I've found I'm not very good at editing my own stories once they're down and set in concrete, so I have to edit as I go along to keep things on track. Others will and should differ, in order to find what works best for them.
Planning is an unnatural process - it is much more fun to do something.  The nicest thing about not planning is that failure comes as a complete surprise, rather than being preceded by a period of worry and depression. [Sir John Harvey-Jones]

joandarc

what's the coolest thing that could possibly happen next, or what's the worst

Heh, yeah, that's a great way to put it.

I like to make a new version of the story and see where I go with it, and if I don't like that version go back to the one before it.  Every version has a date on it ; )

Like you say, everyone has their own mad method ; )

joandarc

Hi,

I"m just wondering, does anyone post the same story in the critique group as they're submitting to the competition?

Advantages and disadvantages of doing same?

Also are the stories posted in the crit group private?  i.e. What happens in Cafe Doom stays in Cafe Doom ? : )

Again, thank you kindly.


Ed

People have posted their competition story in the crit group before, but I can only remember it happening once in the run up to the comp. Most tend to post it afterward to see if there was a glaring reason for why it didn't win. As for the pros and cons of doing it, I don't know. Those who have already read the story will likely stick to their first impressions, I would guess, but they would only number about one tenth of the voting participants, if that. In short, I don't think it makes any difference either way.

The crit group postings are double protected -- not only invisible to non members of Cafe Doom, but also invisible to members, unless they are part of the crit group. Stories from inside the group don't get posted outside of the group at any stage.
Planning is an unnatural process - it is much more fun to do something.  The nicest thing about not planning is that failure comes as a complete surprise, rather than being preceded by a period of worry and depression. [Sir John Harvey-Jones]

joandarc

Hi,

Where and when is the crit group?  i.e. where and when does the group post?

thanks.

Joan

fnord33

Life is an entanglement of lies to hide it's basic mechanisms. - William Burroughs

joandarc