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Fictive Dream, your ideas please?

Started by joandarc, September 27, 2010, 08:15:33 PM

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Rev. Austin

Nice discussion.  It pretty much links in to something I wanted to ask, that might be a question without an answer (or perhaps more accurately, has too many). 

Are there any POVs that class as "tough sells"?

I got to wondering this whilst reading King and Straub's Black House [did I just 'gerund?!].  I honestly think it's brilliant, but...(as I've mentioned elsewhere) the primary POV is third person omniscient (I think), in that there's a lot of "Let's fly as a bird above the streets and take note of what we see" type of descriptions and interjections.  On the one hand, I think this is pretty cool/neat, as it shows you things the main characters couldn't, or don't know, and helps create suspense and tension.  But on the other, it completely breaks the fictive dream because one moment you're closely following an MC then the authors' voice comes in with "We've spent too long with so-and-so, let's go somewhere else". 

I suspect King and Straub get away with it because they're King and Straub but something tells me that if a lowly, but incorrigible, mortal such as myself attempted it in a story, short or otherwise, it might struggle to find a home anywhere.  I've also noticed that a lot of places frown upon first person POV, maybe for fictive dream reasons, maybe because it's too easy to neglect every sense except sight.  So, I ask again, Are there any POVs that class as "tough sells"?
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Ed

I think second person is an all round tough sell, along with first person present tense, and you quite often see places saying first person anything is a tough sell. Third person past tense is the most popular, without a doubt.

The reason appears to be that beginners write a lot of first person, along with a lot of omniscient third, but they do it badly. I'm not sure what difference it makes, really, because anything done badly is surely equally unwelcome. Why differentiate? Maybe it's just that editors are sick of the form altogether.

Conversely, anything done well is desirable. The further up the food chain you go in terms of publication, the more accepting they are of omniscient viewpoint, or any other PoV. All that matters is it's good. Editors like confident, unique voices over any other consideration, I think.
Planning is an unnatural process - it is much more fun to do something.  The nicest thing about not planning is that failure comes as a complete surprise, rather than being preceded by a period of worry and depression. [Sir John Harvey-Jones]

LashSlash

i generaly write in 1st person past tense ---  my readership generaly reads in 1st person present tense...... generaly i think thats the easiest all round.....

Pharosian

But first person present tense makes absolutely no sense from the standpoint that it's presented in a written form--but obviously cannot be written in present tense. The reader is essentially "riding along" with the narrator in his or her head as the action occurs. It's totally unrealistic, compared to first or third person past tense, in which the possibility at least exists that someone wrote the story after it occurred.

jingold

#19
My stories must drive you guys nuts.  :/ I write in first person present most of the time.

Second person is the toughest for me to read with any fictive dream... I have a strong urge to disagree with whatever I'm being told I'm doing.  The only time it's really worked for me is when the 'you' the narrator addresses is someone/something specific other than me (I've seen it work where a murderer was addressing his victim, for example).

I still want to try second person eventually.

Rook

Personally, I like reading first person. I like the intimacy/immediacy of it. I enjoy putting myself so completely in someone else's shoes.

I don't remember ever disliking a book because of perspective, or tense. Second is definitely the toughest, though. For that matter, I don't think I've tried to write something in second; it doesn't really appeal to me.  :scratch:

But then, I like reading lots of (unnecessary) details and descriptions, and don't ask for a clear plotline, so who am I to say anything? ;)  :idiot:
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Ed

Quote from: Pharosian on October 05, 2010, 08:05:01 PM
But first person present tense makes absolutely no sense from the standpoint that it's presented in a written form--but obviously cannot be written in present tense. The reader is essentially "riding along" with the narrator in his or her head as the action occurs. It's totally unrealistic, compared to first or third person past tense, in which the possibility at least exists that someone wrote the story after it occurred.

I know what you mean, but I actually enjoy reading it, if it's done well, and I enjoy writing it. It's a lot like the verbal style of storytelling. If you listen to somebody telling an anecdote it's often delivered in present tense, "So I goes down the Dog and Duck, and who should be there but me old mate, Trigger." I think it accentuates the voice of the piece.

Quote from: Rook on October 06, 2010, 12:04:02 AM
Personally, I like reading first person. I like the intimacy/immediacy of it. I enjoy putting myself so completely in someone else's shoes.


Me too -- in the case of A Farewell to Arms I had to keep reminding myself it wasn't a true story, because it was so convincing as a first person account.
Planning is an unnatural process - it is much more fun to do something.  The nicest thing about not planning is that failure comes as a complete surprise, rather than being preceded by a period of worry and depression. [Sir John Harvey-Jones]

Ed

Quote from: jingold on October 05, 2010, 09:15:33 PM
My stories must drive you guys nuts.  :/ I write in first person present most of the time.

Second person is the toughest for me to read with any fictive dream... I have a strong urge to disagree with whatever I'm being told I'm doing.  The only time it's really worked for me is when the 'you' the narrator addresses is someone/something specific other than me (I've seen it work where a murderer was addressing his victim, for example).

I still want to try second person eventually.

Again, if you listen to somebody telling you an anecdote, you'll find they'll often skip between first, second and third person narrative so seamlessly you barely notice the transition.
Planning is an unnatural process - it is much more fun to do something.  The nicest thing about not planning is that failure comes as a complete surprise, rather than being preceded by a period of worry and depression. [Sir John Harvey-Jones]

fnord33

I can't think of anything I've read in second person. Can somebody name something good in that POV? First person usually annoys me, but there are exceptions. Third past is the only thing I'm any good at.
Life is an entanglement of lies to hide it's basic mechanisms. - William Burroughs

delboy

<Devil's Advocate Mode>First person is the only true viewpoint</Devil's Advocate Mode>  ;)

No, really...

Derek
"If you want to write, write it. That's the first rule. And send it in, and send it in to someone who can publish it or get it published. Don't send it to me. Don't show it to your spouse, or your significant other, or your parents, or somebody. They're not going to publish it."

Robert B. Parker

jingold

Quote from: fnord33 on October 06, 2010, 06:39:19 AM
I can't think of anything I've read in second person. Can somebody name something good in that POV? First person usually annoys me, but there are exceptions. Third past is the only thing I'm any good at.

There's one by Chuck Palahniuk called "Footwork" which is fun.  Link: http://res0.esnips.com/doc/6c29ca09-6dda-4eab-9175-63592ba1c6e8/Chuck-Palahnuik---Footwork-%5BEnglish%5D

Pharosian

Quote from: jingold on October 05, 2010, 09:15:33 PM
My stories must drive you guys nuts.  :/ I write in first person present most of the time.

Oddly enough, I tend not to notice that your stories are written in present tense until AFTER I've read them and I'm writing the critique... Don't know why, exactly, but I've noticed that on the last couple of your stories I've read.

Guess that's what Ed means about it not mattering as much when it's well done.  ;)

Rev. Austin

Quote from: fnord33 on October 06, 2010, 06:39:19 AM
I can't think of anything I've read in second person. Can somebody name something good in that POV? First person usually annoys me, but there are exceptions. Third past is the only thing I'm any good at.

A chap called Wells Tower wrote a collection of short stories that are like odd dramas, and one of those is in second person.  You're a kid who's in a dysfunctional relationship with your father.
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Stay in touch! I don't mean that in a pervy way.

jingold

Quote from: Pharosian on October 06, 2010, 07:22:52 PM

Oddly enough, I tend not to notice that your stories are written in present tense until AFTER I've read them and I'm writing the critique... Don't know why, exactly, but I've noticed that on the last couple of your stories I've read.

Guess that's what Ed means about it not mattering as much when it's well done.  ;)

Why thank you.  :cheers:

Have to admit, I used to hate both first person and present tense.  I found them both jarring and unbelievable.  Then a rash of urban fantasy novels came out that way, and I got used to it provided the POV didn't smack me over the head with it.  I think the more a writer uses the words I, ME and MY, the more intrusive first person is.  Same deal with second and YOU and YOUR.  For present tense, the word SAYS for a tag still gets on my nerves.  SAID is invisible, SAYS is not.

I still like third person best for horror.  I think it's easier to show setting and build atmosphere in that POV.

Woody

.
#29
mustn't have my stuff here, ed keeps it.
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