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Author Topic: Banned from BC  (Read 17024 times)
Ed
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« on: December 26, 2005, 04:13:10 PM »

Yes, it looks like I've upset Alex Keegan for the last time (on BC anyway).  The thread where we were having a heated discussion is suddenly off limits to me now. 

I wonder if he deleted it, or maybe just cleaned it up and put an AK spin on it, making himself look like the injured party scratch
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« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2005, 05:12:00 PM »

I wonder if he deleted it, or maybe just cleaned it up and put an AK spin on it, making himself look like the injured party scratch
As if. You gotta watch this forum paranoia, Ed. I've always found him to be open, honest, and caring.

Apart from the bit on East of the Web when he edited an opening post in a huge thread to prove that he was right, and eveyrone else was wrong  bleh
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Ed
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« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2005, 05:25:11 PM »

I'm surprised he's tolerated me this long, really.  The truth, to him, seems to have the same effect as sunlight on vampires grin

I made the mistake of asking him if we could give his grid to our new lit group members for free.  Then he went off on one because I'd set up an 'alternative to BC', thus depriving him of revenue Cheesy

This is part of his reply -

Quote
And who the FUCK is going to run this group?

Quote
I did what you suggested we do - the proof is there in black and white. And now you are attacking me for doing it, saying I'm taking money from you. I say again - if it was such a shit idea, why did you suggest doing it?

I suggested, FOR CURRENT MEMBERS, who might not be staying (but wanted them all to stay) they might form a group (as was done before, way back).

You seem to overlook the fact that you were roping in OTHER PEOPLE, and further you asked that they get my copyright material for nothing.

Now that is EIGHT people (at least) who MIGHT have joined BC in some capacity or other had you not offered an alternative.


If you cannot see the difference, you're not very bright.




alex
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But his exact words, in another thread were these -

Quote
Just a thought but if some of you DO leave, you have the grid and the way to do things, why not form a group?


alex

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When I quoted this back to him and asked where exactly in the text he specifically said 'CURRENT MEMBERS ONLY', I think that was the last straw grin
 
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« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2005, 05:35:21 PM »

 Cheesy Sorry, but this brings back so many memories! To be honest, Ed, you may be better off not bothering. The burdon of work amd the pressure of standing up to bullies is something we can do without. I can see that, in his mind, he had the idea of a Little League Boot Camp, still within the fold, as it were, but separate. But you're right, he didn't actually say BC members only. And who knows, people may get so turned on to the idea from CD that they may want to subject themselves to the misery that is Boot Camp. It maybe gets people who weren't critting, nor using a numerical grid, into using them.

As he says (I peeked in the foyer earlier this evening), his results speak for themselves. If you want to win short story competitions, then maybe £60 a month for BC Pro is worth it to you. There's probably no better place (at the moment) if that's your driving ambition, and the money issue is acceptable.

Strange that there's a lot of unhappy Campers around who wouldn't rejoin the place even if they were paid.
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« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2005, 05:42:19 PM »

You're absolutely right, Gerald.  That place sapped the energy right out of me - I and a lot of others are better off without it, IMO, in the happiness stakes at least.  smiley
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Planning is an unnatural process - it is much more fun to do something.  The nicest thing about not planning is that failure comes as a complete surprise, rather than being preceded by a period of worry and depression. [Sir John Harvey-Jones]
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« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2005, 05:50:02 PM »

It's such a shame. I have very high regard for the man's writing, and his ideas. Most of his craft articles are fantastic and insightful. But the way he treats people stinks. He would be a lot more successful, IMO, with BC if he were to treat members like real human beings, and not as scrawny dogs to kick and beat whenever he fancied it.
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« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2005, 07:16:12 PM »

Although never a member of BC, I have been in the forum to debate with AK over pedagogical technique. We disagreed but I always found him honest, well-researched and very frank.

I helped him with some IP tracking detective work when a certain person ("writer" & former lawyer) known to many of us, hit on his emails when fraudlulent writing competition activities were outed.

I don't understand why AK should get so worked up over his grid leaking out when it is available on the web if you know where to look Wink

Geoff

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« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2005, 06:20:07 AM »

Yes, he would probably be a very good teacher, if he climbed down off his pedistal and took on more human characteristics.  He's often moaned about people who have gone on to better things not crediting him as their teacher, but I think a good number of them end up hating the guy, because of the way he treated them, so a lot of it's his own fault, IMO.

Geoff, I've seen some of the things he's done, like Gerald said - going back over threads and changing his posts, deleting his worst insults, sanitising the discussion for posterity.  These and other things have given me a different impression of him from yours, sadly undecided

Funny, his was the first forum I've ever been banned from, and for what?  scratch grin
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« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2005, 07:59:59 AM »

Guess I'm the ignoramus here, but according to my understanding of the copyright laws (in the US, at any rate), you cannot copyright an IDEA. Unless you have borrowed his crit grid verbatim  I don't see where he would have a "case."

Rubrics, as any teacher knows, have been around for eons. Mine have been published in assessment textbooks, with attribution. That being said, when a new teacher (see the similarity here, Blunt) says, "Oh, I like that rubric, may I use it?" I say, please do, here's the link to it and here's an electronic copy. If it's to advance the teaching of a discipline, whether writing a research paper for management or  for fiction, it's an educational tool. I don't get the proprietary nature of his comments--there is no fee in this forum, other than that of critting each other's work honestly and with KINDNESS.

If ALL he has to claim for himself is a rubric, and not his ability to teach and attract new students by virtue of his ability to teach then, that's a sorry state of affairs--for him.  There will always be other forums and other crit groups and other teachers, whether formal or informal. He isn't the only teacher on the web. End of Sermon.
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« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2005, 09:03:06 AM »

fwiw...I wouldn't cross the street to piss on him if he was on fire. Talent be damned, if he can't treat people with respect then he gets none in return from me.
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« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2005, 09:27:13 AM »

Guess I'm the ignoramus here, but according to my understanding of the copyright laws (in the US, at any rate), you cannot copyright an IDEA. Unless you have borrowed his crit grid verbatim  I don't see where he would have a "case."

He accused us of 'ripping off his grid' and setting up in competition with him  Cheesy -

Quote
We now have Alice's Restaurant, AR2, Cadenza's new thingee and yours, all basically using the BC model and all using my grid or a rip-off of it.

Quote
Rubrics, as any teacher knows, have been around for eons. Mine have been published in assessment textbooks, with attribution. That being said, when a new teacher (see the similarity here, Blunt) says, "Oh, I like that rubric, may I use it?" I say, please do, here's the link to it and here's an electronic copy. If it's to advance the teaching of a discipline, whether writing a research paper for management or  for fiction, it's an educational tool. I don't get the proprietary nature of his comments--there is no fee in this forum, other than that of critting each other's work honestly and with KINDNESS.

As you know, I haven't handed out his precious grid, nor have I produced a 'rip off' of it.  Like you say, Sharon, there are hundreds of rubric around, but in his mind they all appear to be based on his grin

Quote
If ALL he has to claim for himself is a rubric, and not his ability to teach and attract new students by virtue of his ability to teach then, that's a sorry state of affairs--for him.  There will always be other forums and other crit groups and other teachers, whether formal or informal. He isn't the only teacher on the web. End of Sermon.


There's no doubt that he knows a lot about literary fiction, but, to my mind, knowledge does not a teacher make.  It's a shame he can't impart that knowledge with a little respect for his students.

Walker -

Quote
fwiw...I wouldn't cross the street to piss on him if he was on fire. Talent be damned, if he can't treat people with respect then he gets none in return from me.

 grin  Thanks for that - you made me laugh.  That's exactly the way I feel, too. afro
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« Last Edit: December 27, 2005, 09:27:54 AM by blunt » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2005, 09:28:55 AM »

Wow I only had two days off....

My two penn'orth. (if that's how you spell it.)
For those of use who have been members of BC; it is made clear from day one that the grid is something to be used as part of BC, not outside. None of us are stupid, that was always a given. We paid our money for the right to use it and in doing so I thought we agreed that we wouldn't bandy it about.
I don't understand copyright or intellectual property, but we all knew where we stood with that. I can't see what the problem is. Crits can be done without a grid or score. We've all done it before.





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« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2005, 09:39:04 AM »

Precisely, Jan - but he suggested we set up a group, and none of us have given his grid away, so where's the problem?

BTW, we all paid £30 for lifetime use of the grid, but I don't remember it being said that we can only use it inside BC - maybe I missed that bit scratch  If that's the case, though, why did he say this -

Quote
Just a thought but if some of you DO leave, you have the grid and the way to do things, why not form a group?

It's all very odd.


« Last Edit: December 27, 2005, 09:48:22 AM by blunt » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2005, 11:24:48 AM »

Wow, is everyone here ex-BC?
As a fairly new writer i didn't even know who AK was until a couple of months ago - now i find traces of him on every writing forum!
But i digress...
For the uninitiated can someone explain what this 'scoring method' is about and how stories are stripped & categorised?
Also can i get hold of a copy of this grid to look at?
Ta
D
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« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2005, 12:59:27 PM »

Wow, is everyone here ex-BC?

 grin  I think you'll find an emphatic 'NO' from many of the folks here, on that question.  A few have tried it and got on with BC alright, others have tried it and hated it, many others have been put off ever going there by AK's behaviour on other forums.

Quote
As a fairly new writer i didn't even know who AK was until a couple of months ago - now i find traces of him on every writing forum!

Yes, much to the chagrin of several BC Pro members, who were paying £60 a month and not feeling they were getting their money's worth, while AK was off arguing with people on other forums.

Quote
But i digress...
For the uninitiated can someone explain what this 'scoring method' is about and how stories are stripped & categorised?
Also can i get hold of a copy of this grid to look at?
Ta
D

If you look at EotW's scoring system, it breaks the story down into elements, like this -

title   
beginning   
characters   
plot   
pace   
originality   
language   
dialogue   
ending   
presentation   

AK's is very similar to this.  Sharon's is much more detailed.  All it means is that various elements of a story are marked individually and then added up to give a total score for literary stories.  Most genre stories will bomb, using AK's grid, even if the author is somebody like Steven King, who has sold a couple billion books and countless short stories.  So it has its own built-in limitations.

I'm sure Sharon won't mind you seeing a copy of her grid, the one I devised is available as a free download in the lit section of this forum, and there are hundreds of other rubicons out there on the Internet, but if you want to see AK's grid, you'll either have to buy one, or like Geoff says, it's out there online, if you know where to find it.   afro

If you need any help using the CD rubicon, we'll guide you through it, no problem smiley
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