Banned from BC

[canadian]

You are a knowledgeable, capable writer, Alex. But you seem to have absolutely no class.

[Vivacious]

He's doing a good job of slating me here

No, no, you're doing a fine job all on your own, iMO.   

[Alex Keegan]

Isn't it strange how Ed can say what the hell he likes and only Missy questioned it gently.

The when I come in, speaking honestly, it reveals a lack of class.

Maybe a few of you ought to browse BC for a coupla days and read some of the exchanges.

Anyway, I am not on line to find a family. I have those things OFF line. Real flesh and bone.

BC is successful because we don't spend 80% of our time telling each other how wonderful
we are. The latest issue of Buzzwords has 4 BCers, 2 ex-BCers, and both editors are ex-BC

These are real facts. As are twenty-six frst prizes in 2005 four first prizes already in 2006.

Why should I care if a few people or  a few thousand people think I have no class?

99% of the internet is a little incestuous round-robin of unqualified editors
publishing people that aren't ready to be published. I just happen to say it.

Alex

[Geoff_N]

99% of the internet is a little incestuous round-robin of unqualified editors
publishing people that aren't ready to be published. I just happen to say it.

Hear hear. Also true for the non-Internet world, as testified by James Joyce and Anthony Burgess who both complained their editors were crap, and their work was in still in draft when the publishers' rushed into print. And no doubt it has always been true since the first stone tablet.

I am not the first to hold up my hand to say my writing wasn't ready to be published. Five books later I am still saying it. Hopefully, I will be saying it fifty books later.

Geoff

[Ed]

Say and show what you like, Ronald - I freely admit that I have been overly harsh with other people's stories on occasions, and I feel guilty about that, especially Lee Reynoldson's.  Put it down to something akin to Stockholm Syndrome, or frustration, exhaustion, whatever you like.  At the end of the day, it's my failing and I've got to live with it.  I was too 'rough, tough, blunt and forceful.'

I've long since viewed you as an unreasonable person, so I see no point in engaging you in conversation here.  If you really wanted to open up a dialogue with me, you would have sent a PM, or an e-mail.  I believe your only purpose here is to troll the place up, like you do at EotW, with your multiple identities and your underhand snipes at anybody who dares to offer an opinion without having a trophy cabinet to wheel out with it. 

For as long as you treat me and everybody else with contempt, you will get it back.  Pick a fight and you will get one.  Personally, I'd rather spend my time improving my writing skills, though. 

It's up to you - your call.

[Vivacious]

Isn't it strange how Ed can say what the hell he likes and only Missy questioned it gently.

The when I come in, speaking honestly, it reveals a lack of class.

Maybe a few of you ought to browse BC for a coupla days and read some of the exchanges.

Now why on earth would I browse a forum in which you've edited your own and others posts to help your arguments?? What would I learn there except more of you pompous drivel?

Anyway, I am not on line to find a family. I have those things OFF line. Real flesh and bone.

BC is successful because we don't spend 80% of our time telling each other how wonderful
we are. The latest issue of Buzzwords has 4 BCers, 2 ex-BCers, and both editors are ex-BC

These are real facts. As are twenty-six frst prizes in 2005 four first prizes already in 2006.

Yes, yes, you are SOO much better than us. You have all the infinte knowledge us lowly boobs can only hope to glimpse in our pathetic empty lives. And oh please let us suckle what you'll honor us wih from your teat. Because being published makes you, well, near Godlike, right?!  /end sarcasm

When I see a person who belittles others and lauds his own successes to make himself seem bigger and better, I see a small person indeed.

Why should I care if a few people or  a few thousand people think I have no class?

If you've found that you bump heads with Blunt and you don't care what we think, as you claim, then why are you here? Under a couple of different names, even??

99% of the internet is a little incestuous round-robin of unqualified editors
publishing people that aren't ready to be published. I just happen to say it.

Alex

From what I see here, judging by your words and attitude, I can plainly say I wouldn't want to meet you in real life let alone give you money to critique anything I've put time and effort into.

You may be a talented person but you lack tact. Something to think about: Pride goeth before a fall. Just my 2 cents.

[GrinReaper]

I find this thread thoroughly depressing. Aren't we all in the same boat, in that we are all people who have an urge to express ourselves using the written word?

I don't understand why people expend all this time/energy dissing each other in various forums.

I think people who are secure in what they are doing have no need to sledge others. And unfortunately it only takes one undiplomatic comment to start a fully fledged flame war that accomplishes nothing other than distracting us all from what we're here for -- to become better writers.

It's very sad to see an productive online writing community destroyed -- I know, I saw it happen to getoutthere, back in the day.

 :cry: :cry: :cry:

[canadian]

Thank you, grin! That spoke volumes!

And Viv ... you are wonderfully intuitive!

[SharonBell]

So, here I am on vacation in Florida, escaping my academic internecine wars. I go to my favorite website for a little R & R and what do I find? SSDD.

If only those who follow a "certain path" are "truly enlightened," then why is it that others who are not among the "faithful disciples' can attain publication, honors, and awards? [Visualize pointing all around and at self, here.]

Why is it that the fellow named AK seems to be claiming that he has the only true path? Having tread a different route, I find it impossible to believe there is only "one way." There are many ways to find one's voice and one's ability as a writer. I don't think anyone owns the path.

That's my tuppence=2 cents plain from Punta Gorda, Florida, US of A.

[Geoff_N]

Ah, Sharon, is there room for another beach airbed beside you and room for my weary head on your lap? Please...


Geoff

[SharonBell]

Yes. There are many .

[Alex Keegan]

why on earth would I browse a forum in which you've edited your own and others posts to help your arguments??

That's a perfect example of bollocks.

I have never done that. The reference Doolols made was simply incorrect as I explained.

If you applied common-sense you would KNOW it must be false. Boot Camp is a tough environment. If Boot Campers saw me editing my posts or others to "fix" arguments, they would leave in droves. The fact that they do NOT, shows that the accusation is unfounded.

But you just take a casual remark, solidify it into fact and then act as though the fact is written in stone, underwritten by the United Nations.

You COULD however, enter BC, raise the suggestion/accusation and ask everybody there to answer, is it true, is it false, is it misunderstanding? Why simply take one remark and presume it MUST be true?





What would I learn there except more of you pompous drivel?

John Ravenscroft and countelss others have publicly stated how much they learned in Boot Camp. Even Vanessa G says
I taught her to write and I have an email from her as recent as her Willesden win asking if I wanted her to give Boot Camp
a mention. "After all Alex, whatever else, it was you who taught me to write."

John was in BC for years from raw beginner to the level he is now and at any time he'll answer your questions.
Ask John if I would ever tamper with evidence.




Yes, yes, you are SOO much better than us. You have all the infinte knowledge us lowly boobs can only hope to glimpse in our pathetic empty lives. And oh please let us suckle what you'll honor us wih from your teat. Because being published makes you, well, near Godlike, right?!   /end sarcasm

BUT I AM (if we are talking about writing experience, results).

It never ceases to amaze me that people find this thing so TERRIBLE. Right now *I* am being taught. I'm doing Open University and LISTENING to someone who knows more than me. I freely acknowledge that compared to them (in the subjects I'm studying) *I* am a lowly boob.


When I see a person who belittles others and lauds his own successes to make himself seem bigger and better, I see a small person indeed.

Funny that others think the direct opposite. I don't belittle beginners, I LOVE beginners. They are full of hopes and dreams and potential. I ran BC for seven years for free, never charged a cent, helping hundreds of people into print. What I belittle is bullshit zines run by mates and publishing mates, showcasing that gets morphed into "published", unbelievably bad editing by people often without ANY credentials and almost-zero experience.

What I belittle is the way threads in places like EotW or Bewrite are full of people wetting themselves over web publications in sometimes stunningly bad places, or people who cannot write settig themselves up as teachers on paying courses. I belittle these round-robin incest-groups that publish each other. I belittle the fact that so many self-publish with Lul or whatever and never get tested in a real marketplace.

Had I been starting out now, no doubt I would have fallen for it, the BS, in exactly the same way. But who speaks out against it?

I did at EotW, got pilloried, except by a few.

Six months later Vanessa said almost the same thing but now she's gone back to "just making it fun."

You need to hear what real-world editors say about 98% of web publishing, about self-publishing, about places like Bewrite, LSS, Skive.

I don't for one second think that the people that run these pklaces don't have big, generous hearts. But I believe they are seriously misuguided and HURT beginners.


It's SUPPOSED to ne tough to get published. The rejections and editorial feedback, the struggle is part of the learning experience.

There's a magazine I know (paper) and I published there when I started. I got acceptances there before I'd even bought a copy. The editor is very old, a very nice, good-hearted bloke and he believes in "giving beginners their chance". In any issue half the stories would make your eyes water. They are criminally bad.

But the writers think "I was published in..." and they come back 2-3-4 times. They start to believe they are already writers when they are "writing" stuff that is 25% below even basic competence. it's a trap, a well of self-delusion.

But I was $600 runner up in an important comp. I went to the toilets and someone very very senior in the literary world spoke to me and said. "Lose" your credits in XXXXX. He told me that all my grant applications had been seriously hurt by the simple fact I'd been published in XXXXXX. It's considered to be a millstone rather then a stepping-stone.

When the recent "Willesden Herald" comp came up, a few Boot Campers asked about entering because the blurb said, "The short list will be read (note it did not say 'judged by') by Zadie Smith". The price was a china mug. I asked the BCers, "If the prize is a china mug, are you going to put in stories that might win $1,000 somewhere else? Do you think the comp will be filled with serious writers sending good stuff? The comp is a SKIT newspaper on the web. If you won it, who would you have beaten? Do you think it will look good or bad on your record?"

So BCers didn't enter, because, right or wrong, I saw it as a Mickey-Mouse competition.


If you've found that you bump heads with Blunt and you don't care what we think, as you claim, then why are you here? Under a couple of different names, even??

I'm not "under a couple of different names". i signed my posts as Alex and applied to come in as Alex but hadn't got the email, didn't know if it was coming. I subbed my story anonymously because I think judging a SS comp should be anonymous, because I think names alongside immediately distort the process. Put a few names by stories and allow reader comment befoe the judging and the judging can never be impartial, no matter how hard the judge might wish to be impartial.


From what I see here, judging by your words and attitude, I can plainly say I wouldn't want to meet you in real life let alone give you money to critique anything I've put time and effort into.

Your choice. You are pixels. I don't know you. You think I'll lose sleep tonight, shattered?

You may be a talented person but you lack tact. Something to think about: Pride goeth before a fall. Just my 2 cents.

Tact? You mean LYING.

As for "before the fall" I could face my maker and stare him in the eyes. The one thing I have always been is honest. I know that in life, fence-sitting and handing out false praise is the way to garner accolades, but I shall follow my beliefs, and one day I will die.

I made my choice 12 December 1988


alex

[Alex Keegan]

Why is it that the fellow named AK seems to be claiming that he has the only true path?

I have NEVER said this, or implied it.

Please show in 13 years of writing where I have said there is only one way?

I have never said it, never claimed it, never implied it.

There are many poor methods, slow methods, weak methods, damaging methods.
There are any traps along the way.

There are many GREAT ways. You think I wouldn't like to spend two years at IOWA working with great authors and learning from them? You think I didn't study and get two degrees, then study some more and get an MA in Creative Writing (AFTER I had over 100 publications)? If I believed there was one way only, why do thse things? Why a I doing OU NOW and studying literature at a higher level? Why am I learning (like a beginner, listening) about poetry.


But this is typical of these threads. You just make a statement which will be rpeated ad nauseam.

The only trouble is it's totally without foundation, completely and utterly WRONG.

I state it here and now. The Boot Camp way is NOT, repeat NOT the best way.

The absolute best way is to work 1-2-1 or in a small group led by a great, widely-experienced writer.

Any group led by a good writer and teacher (and I am both) which deands honesty and outlaws
bullshit, will do well. If it also insists on discipline, writing regularly, subbing often, it will get results.


That happens to be how BC works. It's a compromise that allows me to work with 10-50 people.

The alternative is to work with 1-3

But other places (like Alice's Restaurant) have publicly stated that anonymous stoiries, formalised critting,
regular schedules etc have transformed the way the work and dramatically improved their results

Alex

[SharonBell]

Mr. Keegan--

I took your comments here, in this thread, as that reference point. Your statements here are all about you and BC.

I didn't Google you to find all your pubs, honors, and awards. And, I daresay, you have not done that for me either. If you did, then perhaps you may have excluded me and a few other non-vanity published folks in your sweeping comments about "people wetting their pants" over getting published in ezines.

I understand that you feel very strongly about standards. As a textbook editor, journal editor, multiply published healthcare services author (here's my CV http://www.towson.edu/users/buch) I am all about rigor in writing and research.

For many of us, fiction is a new venue or in my case, an old dream to return to, midlife.  This isn't my day job. I will never be Joyce Carol Oates, who is, by the way, a lovely, gracious professor who is kind to literary groupies and writer wannabes.  In this very large world of words, there are many reasons people write and just as many goals. My goals are modest. They are to: to publish short stories in print magazines, with the help of cyber-writing/crit groups and live crit groups; to publish my novel, re-written a hundred times with the 1 to 1 tutelage of a freelance editor who is teaching me how to write; and to learn and have fun. When it stops being fun, I will stop writing fiction. I have enough angst in my "real" world. If I achieve those goals, then I consider myself a happy woman.

Good luck to you with your goals, whatever they are.

Sincerely,

Sharon Bell Buchbinder, RN, PhD
Professor and Chair
Department of Health Science
Towson University
Towson, MD, USA

[Vivacious]

@ Canadian; Thank you, love. I only just came back from a long break last week and damn, if I don't have a nose for where the trouble has made itself at home!

@ Sharon; aahhh the paradise that is Florida! Enjoy it!! Although I live in Florida full time right now, I love vacationing just south of here because there is just no place better than a sandy strip on the coast of this fine peninsula!

And WELL SAID! I too, am only drawing an opinion of AK from this thread as I have noooooooooo interest in his forum, teachings or brand of self delusions.

I've never heard so much, I, I, I, me, me, me in my life! And I have two small children!! I do not base my self worth on my accomplishments online or in the real world, but rather in the love, respect and support I recieve from loved ones and friends (online and off). I find that is a far better measure of my character.


@ AK, sounds like BLAH BLAH BLAH, BLAH BLAH BLAH, and I'm like, ok, uh huh, whatever, SHUTUP.  But, seriously, good luck to you and the floor meeting soon.

Now be gone (or drop it), you are wasting your precious time. I'm sure you can appreciate that.